More loyal customers and better conversion, with Jacob Sjönander #113

A warm welcome to a new episode of Zero to 100. With us today is Jakob, who co-founded Triggerbee together with Olof. And you're brilliant at conversion optimization. This is the first episode of the season, and one thing I know all e-commerce retailers are talking about right now is: how do we increase profits when costs are spiraling? As an e-commerce retailer, you only have a few levers to pull, and one of them is increasing conversion on your site. So I've invited one of the season's first guests for what may be the most important episode to kick-start the autumn and get it off to a flying start. A very warm welcome to the studio, Jakob.

Thank you very much. I don't know whether I'm an expert on conversion, but we do a lot of work helping customers get more out of their websites. Once traffic has been driven there, it's important to identify: who's visiting? Where has that person come from? Are they a customer, a member, or do you have some other relationship? Whatever the case, it's about directing tailored, relevant communication to each customer.

Yes, exactly. All of that obviously drives conversion, massively. I first tried it after having slagged off Triggerbee for absolutely ages. Not on the podcast, but when people asked. I used to say, 'I don't think the app is that good. Swedish, local, doesn't integrate that well. How much do these guys know about e-commerce and conversion?' Then we tried it at Såpa around Black Week.

Yes. And I've been extremely pleasantly surprised by how easy it is, how seamless everything is, and how easy it is to set up a campaign, and when you drive people to the site, they feel welcomed in a different way, and it works with the whole Swedish ecosystem of apps we have here.

That's really great to hear. I've spent years trying to get you going, even before you started [unclear in the source: senaste]. Never give up. That's exactly what we want to hear from customers: that Triggerbee delivers the effect they're looking for.

Yes. And I know myself as a consumer: I go onto a site, and it drives me crazy when they ask whether I want to become a member ten times in a row without giving me any of the things I'm interested in.

The tenth time you shop, you get the question, 'Would you like to become a member?' Exactly. Then you think: good God, recognize me. I usually compare it to that lovely little old-fashioned shop where the staff know their customers. When you walk in, they know who you are or what you're interested in, and use that knowledge to give you the best service. That makes you incredibly loyal. We need to do more of that online.

And that's the whole point, really. How can you do that? Yes. And keep being creative, rather than just doing the same thing, not just a message in your face, but using the whole site, anywhere on the site, to target communication.

But let's jump straight in. Could you give a concrete example of something creative you've seen recently that people are using to identify visitors or increase conversion?

We have two exciting cases that I think are really clear examples. An Advent calendar tailored to who you are. Care of Gerd made a really good physical calendar and collected data. We collect both zero-party and first-party data for customers, who own the data. Zero-party data is information someone enters into a form themselves. A quiz gives you a lot of data, and the key is to reuse it again and again. Care of Gerd did that with their physical product calendar.

How? Using data about people's preferences around skin and other things. I'm no good at skincare, but I understand that different creams work better depending on your skin type.

Yes. And that's how they put the package together, and it meant this Advent calendar sold out in no time. But how did they do the quiz, then, or the questionnaire? Where did they have it, digitally or physically? Digitally. They ask what skin type you have. And based on what people answered, they then tailor the messages to those answers

and sold them a specific Advent calendar based on that. Yes, but even before that, they were also selling by simply collecting that data, which let them put together: this is the product we recommend for you. But then when you take it further and do it over a longer period, like an Advent calendar, it's even more important to do it with the right data.

And I think you could do this with almost any product, as long as you collect the data and can make it work. But were they able to customize the Advent calendar based on people's answers, then?

Yes, it's completely crazy. Yes, we see that. So in other words, they couldn't pack the Advent calendars in advance. No, they couldn't. And now we're getting beyond what I know about it. But all I know is that they're extremely happy with the results.

Yes, perhaps they are. But I'm also thinking it must have been a logistical nightmare: you get 5,000 different answers, and then you have to sit there picking products for each person individually.

They should have livestreamed it on TikTok. Imagine the success. I wasn't behind the scenes, and I don't know exactly how it worked. I know the company is growing fast. They probably set a limited number of calendars so they would have time to deliver them. But whatever the method, you have this data. If someone has dry skin, you can use that throughout the customer journey to improve loyalty. Like in the physical shop I mentioned: here, we know the person is returning to the site; let's say it's…

Jakob, and he has dry skin, and he gets an offer on good creams for dry skin. That's unbeatable compared with targeting something general and saying, 'Hi there. We have a fantastic offer on a very moist cream for you with moist skin.' You won't get as good a result.

Yes, nowhere near. One experience you have as a customer when you go in to shop for car products, for example, is that all cars are different. Different tires fit different cars, with different sizes, parts, and spare parts. So what car companies have done, the ones selling spare parts, is have you enter your—not your company registration number—you enter your license plate number.

Mm. And then they find: okay, this is a 2023 Tesla Model S. These are the parts you need for your car. Yes. And these are the parts, like wiper blades and so on, that are really easy to buy. Suddenly the whole site goes from having 100,000 products to around 500 products that actually fit you.

You could do the same thing with a questionnaire through Triggerbee and have the whole site tailored to you. The difference with car parts is that there, you have to enter your license plate number every time.

Here, you can recognize that it's me. Hi. We recognize that Jakob is visiting the site for the seventeenth time. We know you have dry skin, and we know you've previously bought X and Y, so you should really be shown these products as the bestsellers.

Absolutely. That's exactly how you should use this, and when you do it properly, you should also have it in your communications through email, SMS, and so on.

Through SMS? Yes. If you send text messages, that's really good, and, I mean, sending text messages is expensive. It's bloody expensive. Yes. So it's incredibly important to have good messaging.

Okay. And relevant messaging. It becomes a very one-on-one kind of communication. Absolutely. And from what you hear, SMS works really well. It does. Yes. Especially campaigns. But yes, the point is that this—I mean, when I get a text, if it isn't relevant to me, I ignore it, and then you've thrown your money away if you send those.

On the other hand, if you do what many people do and send a happy-birthday message and so on, then it's even better. Happy birthday. For you, we have this moisturizing cream that you need for your dry skin.

Because you've shopped with us thirteen times, and then you give them a good offer. Almost everyone can adapt it, whatever their industry. Cervera made a calendar with 24 doors. They could tailor it to purchasing history, or even further: questions, purchasing history, and all the other data combined. There are lots of opportunities to target more relevant communication on the site. The more data you have, use it too.

Why aren't more people using this? I knew it existed but didn't go for it earlier. I think for you, it was clear that Google traffic gives you a return on your money. The same with email: here's the list, more mailings mean more traffic. Almost everyone has worked that way: send more, get more results. But in the long term, that's not where customer loyalty comes from.

Loyalty is about understanding and taking care of the customer. Far more people could start doing it and do it better. That's what we're spreading the word about. But nothing comes from just one attempt. Keep trying and be creative over time. Many customers use our embedded messages. A somewhat hidden message that looks like part of the site, but is personal or relevant specifically to the individual visiting.

They work really well, but nobody really sees it as a message as such. It's more of a slightly hidden nudge reminding you to log in or become a member, if you aren't one. It doesn't feel as pushy.

And if you know they're a member, you don't have to show it. No, exactly. If you're a member, you can say, don't forget to log in, because you have some good offers.

I can tell you how we use it in practice: nudges are the best thing ever. It's like the best thing since sliced bread, because it makes it so easy for those of us who aren't technical to put something in when it's Easter, or when we had Midsummer or Mother's Day. When we have something we want to push

yes, we could just insert it into the site without going to the developers, and know it's there for either the whole audience or parts of the audience that we know are our customers

and then we could—we always wanted to reward customers. Because that's something I've hated for years. I don't know whether you agree, but you know when you've been a customer of Tre for ten years

and you're happy with Tre, and then you see all the new customers get a bloody great deal if they buy a new iPhone. But you, who's been a customer for ten years, when you want to, you get something like 599 a month, or nowadays it's more like 899 a month.

Yes. And all the new customers get double data or free data all around the world thrown in. You're just like, wait a minute. What about me? You know, I've given you my loyalty for ten years and stayed with you for ten years. Or the broadband companies out there saying all new customers get half price for the first year. You're like, why? Yes, but loyalty is such that, really, you're the stupid one for falling for this, because they haven't created any loyalty. The loyalty you actually get with these is when you switch. Yes. When you switch. So I've made it a system: every year or every other year, I switch broadband at home, because I always get half price when I switch, whatever I switch to. And then

I'm away for two or three years, and then I come back. They're like, welcome back. Of course. And do you really have the energy to do all this? Yes, but you save several thousand kronor a year.

Sure, but it's still like, you have to change the router. No, you don't have to. It comes straight to your home. Sometimes you should change the router. I just got a new router because I switched this summer.

Yes. If you don't have your own router, you get a loan router that then has to be sent back. It's a hassle. But you have electricity at home too. I change electricity companies often. With broadband, you just switch providers. You don't notice for even a second that anything has happened…

it's just a new broadband provider. And hopefully there's no trouble, then. But I switch between two or three companies, so I know all three are fairly similar.

Yes, and that's sort of what everyone does unless they get stuck, really: you just pay the bills without thinking about what you're getting, until problems turn up. When problems turn up, that's when you start looking for a solution.

Yes. And I think this is basically the principle that new customers are always regarded as more valuable. It's really strange. Isn't that completely idiotic? It is completely idiotic.

Yes. So in every company I've invested in and every company I've helped build, I've always rewarded existing customers ahead of new customers. Because I've been annoyed myself, thinking: why should new customers get a better deal than me when I'm loyal? Hello, recognize me.

I want to reward existing customers. Triggerbee's nudges are an embedded thing that feels native to the site: text, a button, an emoji, or something else. We use it to say: we can see you're a customer; here's the best bundle deal. If you shop at Midsummer, we'll include a Midsummer cloth as a thank-you. It doesn't even have to be on the product page; it can appear on the thank-you page when we know you're returning. 'Thank you, Jakob, for your third purchase with us…'

'…we've included something extra, shampoo or something.' That's valuable, and it shows you care about existing customers.

Everyone thinks: how do we increase revenue? Well, I have to find something new. Of course you need new customers, but they'll also come when word spreads about how well you take care of existing members and customers.

Because who are your best ambassadors? New customers or existing customers? A hundred times out of a hundred. And that's where profitability lies, and everyone in the entire e-commerce community asks me. Every week, I get questions like: 'How can you run companies so profitably?' Hell, all my companies operate on the same principles. Fundamentally, reward your existing customers, because that's where profitability is. It's five times, according to McKinsey's data—five times easier to dig where you stand than to look for something new.

So bringing in new customers is much more costly. And this is so important, because when you look at it today, people don't enter through the homepage, and when you talk about nudges, it's the same thing there. People enter anywhere; they might go straight to the product card or the product, and there they also need to be identified as a member or non-member, and so on. And this is what so many people forget. They think: yes, I've got a pop-up on the front page. That will cover it. But today, customers come in everywhere.

And if you're an existing customer, you often know exactly where to go straight away. Yes. Whereas if you're new, you might take a route from Google and arrive on the site and find something you're not that interested in, and then the pop-up comes.

No, because then the pop-up appears in your face, and you end up just leaving, and you've driven traffic to the website, but instead of trying to help that person get to the right place when they perhaps can't find it, you shove something in their face. You have to do this with much better timing, much more finesse, to drive more. And again, whether it's an existing member or someone who isn't a member, they're actually equally valuable. You just need to look at it in different ways. How

Or perhaps more valuable if they're already there? Yes, but sometimes the reverse. Here's the start of a new customer journey you can build on. The other person might already have bought the sofa and be visiting for cushions. Identify them. We talk to customers about buying intent: someone looks at a product several times. We see the same individual, but perhaps don't know who it is. Then the site can help, with the extra cloth or detergent you mentioned, or a small discount the first time.

That's what so many people miss. When you're selling a more expensive product, customers will of course be looking at competing sites and so on. Yes. And then if they come back: now this person has visited five times in the same week and looked at this sofa. So now you might need a little nudge to make the conversion happen.

Yes. And I think more people should start using that. So, for example, Twistboxes, which we invested in last year, has slightly more expensive products and sells a collapsible roof box that nobody has ever seen before, because it's an innovation. Yes.

And then they come in and think: is this durable? And then they leave, do their own research, and come back. Yes, but now I've been on VTI and seen that this is the most durable roof box on the market. It passes crash tests and various

Yes, but they still don't want to buy it because it's damn expensive, and they leave, and then they come in for the seventeenth time and they're ready to buy. That's when they should get a nudge.

Yes, absolutely. But here you can collect even more data, because you can see who really looks in depth, goes into the technical study, and who is just there because they think things are cool and buys them. There are lots of different types of customers for every product. So if I can identify someone who's very technical and wants to know all the specifications and so on, I should use that when that person comes back.

Yes, but how should you use it? Well, basically, package it so I say to you: we got best in test on this. Don't miss that when you come back in. Because that might be what they're interested in. I don't know where they test roof boxes, but it's probably Råd & Rön or someone who's done a test

Sure, but there are different tests, of course, and you should use that for that kind of person, whereas with the other person who thinks everything's cool, perhaps you should make much more use of saying that this was part of this Red Dot league of new cool products.

Speaking of something cool: last year was my first time at Pindex. You've started an e-commerce conference. Who is it aimed at? It's been going for seven years. I've seen it on LinkedIn and thought there are so damn many autumn conferences, it's hard to fit everything in. Now more are coming; Björn is going to start a [unclear in the source: CX, AX, or UX]…

[unclear in the source: UX Awards]. Breakit has its e-commerce conference. Resumé has an e-commerce conference, or tech/e-com, and ehandel.se has theirs, so it feels—and now D-Congress has also squeezed something into the autumn because they don't have anything in the autumn that's in Stockholm. So there's been a lot in the autumn. But I still have to say Pindex was one of the best I went to last year, because it's a no-bullshit conference. There were only speakers sharing generously, and there was no selling from the stage, and as far as I know, you didn't take in any sponsored slots and sell them for a bloody fortune, like 100,000 to stand on stage—or did you?

No, we had some sponsors, absolutely. But no selling on stage; knowledge should do that. When we pivoted from B2B toward more e-commerce, we didn't know how e-commerce worked. Nobody in the office knew the field. We needed to learn, so we started indexing how good Swedish online retailers were at personalization. It's a broad concept, but we set a number of criteria we could investigate ourselves, without help from the companies. The first year, Hennes & Mauritz won, having received a lot of criticism for its online work. The exciting thing was…

the exciting thing here was that we saw lots of new things they were doing that were good, and they were very far ahead in their initiatives then. But big companies can find it hard to do things quickly. So in the following years, Kicks has won year after year, and they're incredibly far ahead in how they work with on-site personalization, but also personalization as a whole.

Okay. If we break down personalization too. What is Pindex in broad terms? So this is the seventh year? Pindex is an event we now run where everything is built around a report we publish on how good online retailers are at personalization, and we have one for large companies and one for small companies.

Does a top-100 list come out, then? Yes, it's a list of 200, and nowadays you can actually index yourself and add yourself to the list, because we can't cover everyone, we don't know everyone, but we've taken roughly the 200 biggest, and it's the Nordic countries we're looking at a bit now too. Sweden is still very far ahead

compared with Finland, Norway, and Denmark, then? Yes. And that's actually fun. We're very good. But of course, some companies are really good and do things differently and so on. Then we've taken a certain number of criteria and established that these are the criteria we can measure without having to contact the companies.

Last year, we also asked marketing directors about their ways of working and planned investments. But the answers were hard to collect, so this year we skipped that and thought we'd scale down the index. We're a SaaS company, a software business with licenses, not an events company. Demand was high anyway. We now have over two hundred people signed up for September 2, and really good speakers.

Last year's best speaker was you, Fedja. So we've got you back this year, which we're really pleased about. It's great to be back. It's only next week, so there aren't many days left.

That thing about next week sounds stressful. I'm still thinking it's fine and there's plenty of time. But are you finished with the planning? Not completely, but we're getting there. We looked at the venue on Friday: Convendum on Fleminggatan, in the old Trygg-Hansa building. A really nice venue, and the seating is comfortable.

Yes, that's good. So, I'm looking forward to it. I was pleasantly surprised when you called and said I'd been really appreciated last year, because I remembered that after my talk, I was criticized, because so many people came up to me and said e-commerce isn't as easy as you make it look.

No, but I think what you do, and what people always appreciate from speakers, is sharing tips and advice and showing how to go about things, rather than just standing there saying these are the results we've achieved, and so on. What really matters is the hands-on advice you can give someone, and that's very much what we try to get at Pindex. People talk about their mistakes as well as what goes well.

Mm. And it's basically the mistakes. That's often what you learn the most from. Yes, I know, that's really what you should share more of, but you always want to shine and just say this was it. But I did show some mistakes we made at Mockberg last time at Pindex. At the same time, I'm a bit controversial, because I think commerce is quite simple, and I boil it down to one simple thing: you need to get three things right. How hard can it be?

And I've been doing this for years. I've talked about it at different conferences, and there are always people going, ah, it's not as simple as you make it seem. I'm like, no, I know it isn't; there's obviously a lot behind the scenes, like this personalization we're talking about today.

There's any amount of work to do. The operational craft is hard work, but it's like saying, yes, it's damn hard to build a house. It's bloody hard to build a house if you have to do every part yourself. You know, the operational craft of laying pipes. Yes, it's damn tough to lay a foundation slab. Yes, it requires very precise construction, because otherwise the whole house of cards, I was going to say, the whole house collapses, right? So yes, it's exactly the same when you're doing the operational craft of e-commerce, but broadly speaking, making a broad generalization, I know e-commerce is quite simple. It's about getting people to a site, like getting people into a shop.

Yes. Ideally, they should buy from you, and you should get them to come back. And how do we make the whole journey as pleasant as possible, as personal as possible, so they come back and become ambassadors? Right? So we turn the funnel a bit upside down. We start with the ambassadors. How did you become an ambassador?

Ask your five hundred best customers and then move on: how do we get more ambassadors and very happy customers? Actually, it's not that difficult.

It doesn't sound difficult when you put it that way. But everyone understands there's hard work behind it, and when we were going to start this, we got a bit delayed. You had call after call after call, so you work very hard.

True, there's work to be done. Nobody makes any secret of that. Even though I've built a lot of companies, I'll work at least as hard going forward…

Because I think it's the most fun thing there is. Every new project brings new challenges. I understand that when you listen to a podcast or a talk on stage, broadly speaking, it looks easy. You think Såpa did that, so we can too. Sometimes, but nine times out of ten, it won't work in exactly the same way. Interpret what we did and do it your own way in your company. That ability to interpret seems to differ a lot between individuals. Some…

people are really good at interpreting and then adapting to the situation. I was talking to [unclear in the source: Nicker], who I think is extremely good at going into large companies and small companies and interpreting what we need to do that's hands-on, the lowest-hanging fruit here and now. Or someone like Pelle Pettersson is exceptionally good at things like that

can go into company after company and do it well, both in the nitty-gritty and at a big, high level, right? Whereas there are lots of people who are serial entrepreneurs, who've done it once and succeeded really well, no names mentioned, but have had this rocket ride from zero to 500 million, and then they start another company and copy and paste their original company, only five or ten years later. That's completely off-grid now, really. It's not relevant if you're working with influencer marketing today, doing gifting and seeding the way you did in 2015, when it was in its infancy.

Of course that isn't going to work. Micro-influencers aren't really willing now to promote a brand to death just because they get, say, a phone case or a sweater or, you know, a T-shirt for the seventy-third time.

Yes. What do they need? What do you need to give a micro-influencer in that case? I mean, I'd say it's bloody hard to give anything at all away for free in exchange for advertising. That basically doesn't exist; now you have to give something of greater value.

Yes. So that's the only thing that might possibly work. But it has to be very closely tailored to their content. So if you're an influencer working with gardening, and you happen to have a brand that sells premium gardening items, and you have a package specifically tailored to their garden, then it can be a good match.

Otherwise, it's completely off. But competition among influencers has only increased. Shouldn't they be getting more desperate? No, there's also very intense competition on the company side…

and companies have become more desperate and basically want to take anyone. Instead of looking for good content creators and finding them, they essentially mass-email several hundred or thousands a day and think: well, I'll take the ones who reply

someone will bite, someone will bite, and of course they do, someone bites. So it's been a numbers game from 2015 until it stopped working sometime in 2020 or 2021, and since then it's just gone downhill

but you do still notice some products get really big celebrities who take them and start using them for nothing, and so on. Yes, there are a few good examples like that. For instance, I saw now that Flowlife will be talking at Pindex about Haaland starting to use their products.

At Pindex? Yes, next week. Bloody cool. How did Flowlife get Haaland, one of the world's biggest football players and one of the World Cup's big poster boys, to use the products? I have no idea. I'm keen to hear that.

Yes, me too. But it's extremely unusual, and it's quite difficult, and it takes a lot of work. I worked with one called Chimi, which does accessories and glasses and sold clothing for a while

and they always—or not always, but they got really big celebrities like Kylie Jenner to wear the shades, and I thought: how do you manage that? It was

almost a bloody miracle. I mean, it's about some kind of cool factor, and it working, and them thinking it looks good, and then they have a PR team actively working on perhaps not Kylie Jenner, but her management

and everyone around Kylie to make sure that it's—but that isn't anything new. I mean, Absolut Vodka wanted to make it in the US. It was bloody hard for them to break through there. But then the Swedish ambassador's daughter had contacts and knew Andy Warhol and got him to make that Absolut

painting. Yes. The painting. Wow. Such a classic, and then they asked: 'Do you have any tips on other artists who could do this?' And then she mentioned two other artists, and one of them, I can't remember who it was, I think it was. But then they went to that person and said: 'Could you paint a picture too?'

So he was like: 'What did Andy Warhol get?' 'Well, let's say he got $50,000.' Then he says: 'Then I want double that.' But wasn't Andy the one who did that soup too? Campbell's Soup.

Yes, Warhol did all sorts of cool things. Then the price went up. Not my area of expertise, perhaps. At Pindex, we try to get new, exciting speakers people haven't heard before. [unclear in the source: Nikdag] spoke with us for the first time when Cervera ranked well. He did exactly what you did…

He gave all the data people wanted access to. Mm. And I think that's really what everyone wants to listen to. Then again, perhaps they don't have all the data either, but the experience you have with a certain number of brands means you know it works, because something working for one doesn't mean it works for ten.

No, it absolutely doesn't. So that's what I mean by this ability to interpret, and I think you need to look at what worked for a certain brand. Mm. It doesn't mean it's going to work. Not even if you have an identical brand saying exactly the same things. If we take haircare, for instance. I was in haircare for many years, and then I worked with a company called Under Your Skin, and it went really well. And then if I went into haircare again, not that I'm planning to or that it's even on the cards, but if I worked with some company in skin or haircare, I would do a completely different scenario. Of course, the story would be the key point somewhere, because the common thread through all my brands is that there's a story to

make use of. Yes. And a product that actually works, because I don't want to get into anything that—but isn't it a saturated market? That's how I feel. My son likes perfumes, or sort of, yes.

And you've been to different shops, and you're like: good God, first, it's so expensive, and there are so many competitors. And yet you hear about, for example, Byredo being sold and somehow creating a new market.

Yes. Or they stood out in an existing, highly competitive market in a particular way. Essence does that too, in some way, and there are other companies doing it very well. Mm.

[unclear in the source: one b chemist] is doing it well for men now. The common thread is that a saturated market is sometimes easier to enter with a unique story, a concept, or a fresh iteration of a product than with an innovation. Twistboxes is more of an innovation. The roof box market doesn't have that many players. One happens to be Swedish and has something like sixty or eighty percent of the world market.

No, we don't need to mention it. Everyone knows who they are. They're even synonymous with the word roof box in some countries. If you go to Serbia, it's not 'I'm going to buy a roof box,' it's 'I want the brand's name.' As in, I'm going to buy one of those. Yes. And it's like saying Google. You don't say, 'I'm going to search online.' You say, 'Could you Google something?' So it's become synonymous with searching online. In exactly the same way, this roof box producer has done that, and then I invest in a company making a completely fresh innovation.

Yes. And that can be much harder, because there's a longer runway than going into something that's an iteration. Yes, like a slightly better haircare product, or a slightly better perfume, or a slightly cheaper perfume, or one that's a bit more tailored to a specific audience, like Byredo.

Yes. Standing out in some way through design or something else can be easier than innovating entirely. But what's the most fun for you, then? For me, the most fun is when it's an impact company that actually makes a difference and a product that fundamentally works. So something I feel at home in. Yes,

that's absolutely the most fun, by far. Then I don't know what niche it will be, but I've said several times now that if I go into something, it should be something in health.

I want to go on a journey in health, given my background over the last two years. I've immersed myself in it at a nerdy, nitty-gritty level.

Yes, but you have tremendous knowledge. But how fun—is it difficult to find companies in that area? I mean, of course it's hard to find companies that actually make good products that work and have a good story, rather than just, 'I have a new supplement and I just want to make money.' It's like

the concern that, okay, you've found entrepreneurs whose only ultimate goal is: I want to build a company and sell it. Yes. When what I'm really thinking is that I want to build a company so it becomes a brand that lasts a hundred years. So your children think this is something we founded together. Then if we sell it along the way, well, that should be a by-product of wanting something bigger, because whoever we sell it to should be able to contribute something.

That's how I've thought about it, anyway. I don't know whether it's right or wrong, but—yes, it sounds really good, I mean, but at the same time, the harsh reality is that you have to make the money today.

Yes, you have to make the money today, otherwise it'll go wrong. But going back, who else is speaking at Pindex, then? Well, we have—and it's Walter, Flowbox, and Flowlife.

Flowlife. Flowbox. Why am I saying Flowbox? And then there's Cervera, which has been near the top of Pindex for several years, sort of breathing down Kicks's neck. And that's really fun.

And it's not Nick this time; it's not Nick. He left ages ago, but he left ages ago. Okay. So Cervera has been in the top three. Top three for at least the last three years, I think.

Yes, it'll be interesting to see what they've done. They asked how they could win, and Felix and I went there and held a workshop with the whole team. We talked and gave tips. They've done a lot of that, but also been even more creative, so it's become more. They made good use of AI early on…

to make a really good way of prompting and searching for products like that. Could you give an example of something you can use AI for to personalize the customer journey?

Absolutely. Many customers have many markets. The problem has been that a campaign needed to be reviewed and translated for every market. With AI, we can translate a campaign into 35 languages instantly and save a lot of time. At Pindex, we'll also talk about our MCP, and how eventually you should be able to write or say: I want a campaign targeting all members who've bought this product or similar products, only on these pages, and in all languages. Then automatically…

you'll have that campaign there. But wait, have you created an MCP for something like Claude so Claude can connect with—it's coming. I'm not going to say much about this here; you'll hear about it at Pindex.

Thank you. This is a good teaser. But yes or no? We have created one, but I'm not going to go into it in more depth. We've created an MCP, and there'll be more at Pindex. A lot is happening. I mean, we haven't been sitting idle over the past year, let's put it that way. What we're seeing is that we're moving more and more toward a product that won't just create campaigns; we'll own more of the customer journey for our customers, because the website is so important, and you need to make the most of the visitors there.

Great. Another thing that's really fun is that two of my favorites are also going to speak, Bengt Wesborg and Sofia Båge, who do a lot with AI. AI-baren.

You haven't been to that. People got scared and thought they had to get started with AI but didn't know how. So they started AI-baren, a pleasant setting where they talk about how to start using AI. They've been doing it for almost two years, I think…

and are continuing now. And Bengt used to run the world's most dangerous meeting, and that was at Liseberg. Ah. Star Republic [unclear in the source: BT okej nu], and it was my favorite event every year. I loved it

I always planned to go to Star Republic's event the following year, but never found the time. Is the event dead now? Yes, they sold Star Republic to some Belgian or French company and changed the name. But you never know whether Bengt has plans. Maybe invite him next time.

Exactly, I've actually never spoken to Bengt, so I'll say hello now when we meet at Pindex next week. Yes, I think you should. No, but both he and Sofia are really good, and it's really fun that they want to speak too.

They're going to talk about making AI more hands-on. In the morning, we have [unclear in the source: ljus och meetup], where we get down into the nitty-gritty of the product. Didriksons will talk about how they use us. Also [unclear in the source: exter marketing], a good agency with whom we have many customers in common, will go into depth. They were involved in the Care of Gerd part, among other things.

Yes, that Advent calendar. Yes, the Advent calendar. And they've done a lot of other fun things too, which they'll talk about. What do you think of Care of Gerd as a brand, then? I mean, since I don't know this field, but I think the whole story is wonderful, how they come from up in—I think it's Jokkmokk, if I'm not getting that wrong

…and basically learned chemistry for the vision of a better brand, with creams from nature in Sweden. When you're that passionate, I don't think you fail. And when they get knowledgeable help in the areas they don't know, I believe in success. You can see they're doing well.

Yes. No, I'm sure they're doing really well. I don't know the figures, but I know they won the small-company award together with Mockberg last year. Exactly. That's why I knew about it.

Yes. And I can say that precisely because they're also a customer, we've discussed this case, and you become very impressed by how they work and how creative it is. Mockberg isn't a small company anymore, though, is it?

They've passed a hundred million. Too bad—or I mean, congratulations! Exactly, small companies are up to about a hundred. But you have others near the threshold who might compete this year…

Perhaps Twistboxes. They'll be getting close next year. Then we'll see them. You have other exciting companies too? Absolutely, with Twistboxes we'll have to make sure… You know, the most personalized right now is probably the poster company we invested in this summer.

I don't think the poster company is included in the mapping yet. You said you could register yourself, so I'll do that for the next one.

What CMS do they have? Shopify. We now have our own app there. Triggerbee's own app? Yes, try it, it'll be fun. Brand new.

Is it published on the App Store, then? It's taken its time, but now we're there, and it'll be really exciting. Yes, absolutely right. That's basically where all the retailers are heading now.

Exactly. But it's not the only option; of course you get quite locked in with certain parts and others and so on. I've been talking about Shopify ever since I started the podcast, and really ever since I worked at a company then called Improve Development. I tried to get them to see that we had to move to Shopify.

How long ago was that, six or seven years? It goes quickly. Yes, Shopify has really gained market share over the last three years…

Almost every online retailer I talk to, large or small, should have Shopify on the map ahead of a migration. Otherwise, it's practically professional negligence. Though there's depth to this: other ideas, versions, or teams that know something else.

So I'm not going to say—it will probably continue, and there have to be lots of alternatives, otherwise it'll become far too locked down. But there are different things that are good for different types of what

But you absolutely should look at them. I think that needs to be more in the roadmap, really. Okay. At least establish: is this a good platform for us? Yes, we need to go back a bit to where we started, with personalization and conversion tips.

Besides personalization with a customer study, I want to recommend something we use in Triggerbee. Now this is becoming a lot of advertising for…

It sounds salesy. Yes, as if you'd sponsored the show. [unclear in the source: but you have done that.] I really haven't done that. I just think it's a really good thing. When I find good things, I like to share them, on LinkedIn or on the podcast.

But during Easter and special campaigns, you can do something like hiding eggs, Easter eggs. Now you've made ready-to-use functionality for that, so it was bloody easy. Every year, we've run something where you find something and get a 500-kronor gift voucher, or you get, well, a gift card—that's the same thing—but you get something like a starter kit from us or something else, and

Does it work well? This year, we could do it with actual Easter eggs directly through Triggerbee. I was shocked that everything worked out of the box without developing any features. We hid the eggs on the site. Previously, whoever found them had to take a screenshot and email customer service. The most awful process.

Hundreds of emails came into customer service, and then we had to filter out who was first. A bloody pain. Now everything worked out of the box. Britt-Marie found the egg on a certain product page, [unclear in the source: gömde den här spen], and then it was removed from the site.

Did you make it so members didn't have to register, but others did? Exactly. That gave us about 7,200 new members—or the wrong word, subscribers who provided their email address. A hit. Then we could measure that seventeen percent of the people who registered during the Easter campaign bought something within sixty days.

Yes, bloody great. It drove new customers, even though we only advertised to existing ones. Or advertising is the wrong word; we sent an email campaign. I'm also thinking people share it…

And we posted a bit about it on social media, so there were some new people too. But creativity works all the time, and gamification like this is appealing: people want to play

yes, people really want to play. The funny thing is that lots of people say this only works on the consumer side. I can tell you it works just as well in business-to-business. People love playing, and when you're sitting at work, perhaps with a cup of coffee, you're quite happy to play a memory game or

Exactly. Memory was the next thing we tested. You have a built-in Memory game, which many people have played with children or as children. The app is so good. In January, we wanted to get more detergent out there, one of our best products, but for some reason people were buying it [unclear in the source: deine för att köpa]. We made a pop-up with Memory. If you won, you got detergent with your purchase. Brilliant.

That's how it should be used. Then think about AI and all the data on preferences: eventually, all the Memory tiles will be personal, tailored to the individual's interests and preferences.

The same with the Advent calendar. That's where you need to get to for deeper loyalty. Gamification makes you feel you've won. Many people didn't complete Memory and didn't get any detergent. Those who completed it got it with their purchase and were more inclined to order detergent, or rather…

order something to get detergent included with the purchase. And we saw an extreme increase in returning customers: those who actually bought a detergent, or got one with their purchase in January, came back in February, in March, in April, basically all year. So it was an enormous success for detergent.

That's really great to hear, and that's sort of how you should work. Then you can do it based on time too. You can say everyone who achieves a certain time gets something, or you can

everyone who's fastest at Memory, then? Yes, you can do that too. That's possible. You can do that. Yes, that's fucking crazy. Yes, it becomes—you can see how long it takes too. That's what makes it even more stressful.

We had it at D-Congress, saying come and play Memory. People were like, what the fuck, it must be possible to do it faster. Okay. What was the record, then? No, I can't tell you the number of seconds.

You can start with the simplest version, [unclear in the source: 2 * t], and it's quick. With six by six, it takes longer. Then there are six by six tiles.

Is that the biggest? Yes, otherwise it doesn't fit well, not on mobile. Mobile is more important than ever. More customers are investing in mobile apps, because they generate higher loyalty when people are in them, like…

Like Lyko, Nelly, NA-KD, and others. We've started with smart apps so you can identify whether the app has already been downloaded. Exciting. People who haven't downloaded it can be taken straight into the app when they do. But does an online retailer doing zero to a hundred million need an app?

No, completely unnecessary. Far too costly, I think. Too many costs. [unclear in the source: för med kostnads det ingeni]. Multiple channels are good, but they have to be easy to run and manage. The website ought to be enough.

I agree. I think it's quite hard to run—why would I want an app from Care of Gerd, for example? Yes, I think that's difficult today. But when you say, in the beginning, when it was competitive, you can see that those who were early to make apps got a lot of traffic from them. But today, apps have declined, and now they're starting to rise again. So that's a bit exciting.

But I definitely think it can't be a small company. It needs resources to be able to do this well. And here too, it's important to work with gamification within that part.

Is there any new Triggerbee feature I don't know about that's coming soon? Beyond MCP and the technology, I'm thinking of a new Memory or a new game.

Yes, there's scratch. You scratch it, and you could have, for example, like a Triss ticket if you sell tires, three different tires, and under one there's a golden tire when you scratch, like a Triss ticket.

Okay. Everyone who's bought a product could get a scratch card, for example? Yes, you could do that…

and then perhaps they win a golden tire. Yes. Or a golden tire or whatever you want to do. But can you set it so, say, one in a thousand should win? Yes, you can, absolutely

In the backend, in Triggerbee's login and admin? No, we can manage it from our side. And so people actually win, no scam. Absolutely. When someone wins, you want to promote it and make something of it.

Exactly. What do you call it, scratch? Scratch, like scratching a Triss ticket. Here, you can find the golden wheel out of three, or get a scratch card and try it. Then there's the Lotteries Act, which I don't know, and whatever applies there.

No, I mean, yes, that's true. There is a Lotteries Act. There's always a bit of law behind it. Yes, of course. Of course. You're not allowed to do that.

No, but there are loads of creative examples. We'll point out and show some new things among these at Pindex. But new things keep coming all the time. Can't you just create more games like these?

We're creating more games too. We listen a lot to customers' wishes and build based on them. If customers ask for an improvement, we might prioritize that ahead of a fun new game.

But more games are coming. I think they're very good for loyalty and personalization. The Såpa examples with the Easter eggs and Memory have been such that I'd have paid good money just for those, just to have games on the site. Development you avoid, and a very good ROI.

How long would you have paid? Well, perhaps a one-off payment to get the game. Yes, but we don't want a one-off solution.

That's understandable. That's why I'm saying more games would be good. I want the eggs next year too. But there are more coming.

Yes. So you want some—do you have an Advent calendar? Yes. So you've made an Advent calendar where you can choose what things to put in it yourself. Yes. You can choose to have open doors, you can have hidden doors, you can choose to have different doors, and so on. It's really easy to work with. And last year, both Stronger and Cervera had really nice Advent calendars.

No, I'm just thinking, because I remember when I worked at an agency mainly developing websites, Improve. Yes. When we were going to build an Advent calendar, we charged something like—it was crazy money. It might take something like 500 to 1,000 working hours to build a customized Advent calendar for one of our slightly bigger customers, meaning medium-sized customers who might have revenue of a few hundred million.

You went all in throughout the autumn to launch in November. We don't charge that much, considerably less. Unfortunately, perhaps, now that I hear what opportunities there were.

Unfortunately! That's how it used to be. Now we're thinking scalable and simple. You should be able to get the same look and feel as in your book.

And set it up easily. We want to point to creativity, trying things, and continually tailoring more. I'm saying a hundred percent that we have to try an Advent calendar at Såpa. How did Care of Gerd do it again?

You'll have to go to the meetup when [unclear in the source: extender] speaks. Good. So they made a questionnaire to understand what type of… For us, it's important whether you live in a house or an apartment and have decking, so we can point to the right…

Exactly, products, and then you can have those products in the Advent calendar you open, or—so it's not that everyone gets the same. No, you should make it personal, but there's a bit, yes, a bit of manual work involved, as you say, with shipping or whatever it is

around it. But this is what's really personal. I mean, if I live in an apartment, I don't need things that someone who owns a house might need. That's what you need to find here. I don't know the purchasing journey for soft soap, but I understand. No, but it is like that, I mean

everyone needs soft soap. Everyone has to clean, but not everyone will clean in the same way, and not everyone has the same things at home. No. Mm. And it's about identifying that as much as possible. Can you do it through a quiz, or by seeing what their behavior is over time, or can you just see that they're looking at different products?

All of that gives you a better customer journey, and we want to help with that. We sound salesy now. That's okay if the tips are good.

Yes, I think this is interesting, because it's sparking a few ideas for us too now about how I'm going to sit down with the team straight after this and just brief them. We have to start building that damn Advent calendar. Does it take a long time to set up?

It doesn't take long. Then Black Friday is coming, with lots of exciting opportunities. Do you have a game for that? Not really, but we can find something and put our heads together afterward. In the past, we saw people take Triggerbee down during Black Friday every year…

Last year, almost nobody shut it down. More Triggerbee campaigns than ever. Partly because people know the traffic volume isn't disrupted, and partly because there are lots of ways to increase sales. For example: become a member and get the Black Friday offer a day early. Good results. Or a countdown showing there's only a short time left before the offer ends. That pressures me not to run around to all the competitors. Or a counter showing the number of…

…products remaining: now there are only ten. Clear, and it creates better opportunities for conversion. Back to games. What could create recognition? Lots of people don't call it Black Friday anymore, but Black Week.

Yes. And then it's become Black Week Month, so a lot of people start earlier, because this law saying you're not allowed to have so many big campaigns per year means people combine Singles Day with Black Week.

You start on Singles Day and continue through the end of the month. Lots of people do that. Like Easter eggs, you could hide the letters in Black Friday. If you find the whole word, you get a good offer.

Exactly. Like making it with lots of letters that you have to spell out. Letters. But that's possible too; I mean, looking at it in terms of games, yes, of course you can make personalized Memory games, spin the wheel.

Do you have spin the wheel too? We have spin the wheel too. I think it's so damn tacky. Sorry, but I think it's the worst game of all, because I think all the American online retailers have spin the wheel. Everyone wins something, but you never win the biggest prize. It just feels like a scam to make you enter an email address and then get something like seventeen percent off, and everyone gets the same.

Yes, I can agree it feels that way, but it's up to each retailer how they want to do this, and of course, if someone wins the biggest prize, I recommend making something of it. That's to show you're really doing something.

But it's like all these prizes: I mean, who wins? You don't always know who wins, but the important thing is that someone at least shows appreciation and perhaps does something. Yes. Then people can see someone winning. No, but I like gamifying Black Week in some way, and finding letters hidden on the site. Perhaps not Black Friday, because that's too many, but finding a few of them and then

You could just take 'black,' for example, or you could take—no, that'll be seen as wrong. True story. I actually have an anecdote. A few years ago, I was running a Swedish online retailer that was going into the US.

It was our first Black Week. Instead of that name, we ran Black Month. Not Black Week or Black Friday Month, but 'the Black Month campaign is starting.' A whole month, and fuck, what an outcry there was.

Ouch. So yes, we won't look for the word 'black.' No, but obviously a lot of people were upset by it. Yes. No, then you just have to be creative and find something else. Yes, BFC.

Anything is possible; just come up with something and be creative. No question. If we hide letters on the site, people get to feel they've put in a little extra effort. At the same time, you put them where you want people to discover a product or something…

It's about being smart. What do you want to show, and how do you get people to browse around? Exactly. But the prizes have to be good too.

Mm. I mean, I think if you put up a roof box in a Black Friday prize draw, a lot of people would browse around the site for a very long time to get it, because it's such a nice prize. On the other hand, if I win perhaps a little 50-kronor discount code, I don't think many people will do anything for that.

Yes, not necessarily. It depends on whether you always have campaigns and discounts and discount codes. But as you know, Såpa never does, and everyone has to clean. So if we hid a 50-kronor discount code behind something, I think it could still have an effect.

But this is interesting, because you say you never do it. And that's also so important, because lots of people say, 'Well, I don't do discounts, so I can hardly use any campaigns.' That's such a mistaken way to think. The whole idea is still that everyone needs to be able to get something valuable. And it can be, as you say, an extra dishcloth. You can get socks when you buy something.

It used to be that when you bought a suit, you got a tie. People don't use ties as much now, but still, the point was, yes, great, then I get a tie, so I don't have to spend that money, or a shirt or whatever. Give something that people really want and will put in a bit of extra effort for, and then you get good results.

Yes, so it doesn't take that much, at least not from Såpa, to get people to click the buy button a little more freely, really. An extra cloth, 50 kronor. It's like food: if you get a 25-kronor voucher from ICA

you're still really happy, because it's 25 kronor. You have to buy food anyway. Yes. You have to buy cleaning products anyway. Sure, you don't have to buy from us, but if you've bought from us before, you're likely to buy from us again.

Absolutely. I'm a member at NK, and I went and bought NK coffee. Really delicious, I can tell you. NK coffee? Yes. Okay. Really delicious coffee. I didn't know that was a thing. This sounds snobbish.

Yes, it probably is snobbish. But whatever, when I buy it, they say: 'You'll also get our tea of the month.' So I got a sort of half bag of tea for free because I'm in the loyalty membership. Of course I want to shop there again.

But NK coffee, you bought the coffee. It wasn't just a cup of coffee; you bought coffee to take home and put in the coffee maker. It's really good coffee. I think it's [unclear in the source: byllands] too, but it's in NK too. But really delicious.

Okay. Yes. And that's loyalty; it creates it straight away. And you know what? I haven't told just one person. I've told ten people. Yes, now you're telling thousands on the podcast.

Now I'm telling thousands. Go to NK and buy coffee. Become a member and buy coffee. No, but this is what I mean. The same thing. But are you gold, or what's it called? NK Black, or what do they call their tier?

White and Black, isn't it? Yes, then you're a super customer. No, I think I'm basic.

And you still got tea. Yes. Yes, nice. And now, it might not cost them anything, but it produces this effect when someone really wants something, that it's very positive.

I usually say it's something you weren't expecting, so the company has gone the extra mile. I bought a car from a dealer ten or fifteen years ago…

and it was my first new car. I picked out a car that was quite expensive for me at the time. A Lexus, I can't remember whether it was an IS or some model like that, 300. A really nice car.

Really nice, my first truly new car from a dealer. I'd had my eye on it for a long time because Lexus topped the rankings, with minimal servicing needed and everything out of the box. I don't have the energy for servicing. I'm not a handyman.

You're that untechnical? Exactly, as untechnical as you can get. I went back and forth with the salesperson many times and bought a Lexus. I picked it up a few months later. As I drive out of the showroom toward the E4, the whole team, the entire Lexus company team, is standing there waving. One or two weeks later, a letter arrives with a handwritten postcard: 'Hi, Fedja. Hope everything is going well with the new car. If you have questions about any feature or anything else, don't hesitate to call. PS, I…'

included something here in the package, and it's a bag of Ahlgrens bilar sweets, and I'm like, wait a minute, you buy a car for about 300,000—they probably cost a hell of a lot more now, but this was many years ago. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Three hundred thousand for the car, and I get a bag of Ahlgrens bilar. I'm delighted by sweets that cost twenty at ICA. I tell my family and talk about it at lots of lectures, and I've been loyal to Lexus ever since. They did that little extra. Then I switched to Tesla when they appeared, but if Lexus had had an electric car then, I probably would never have switched.

Yes, and I've heard others say that too, that the service is outstanding, and word spreads. Yes, it's incredible in a way. So I think if you just do that little extra, I've carried that with me ever since. And when I opened my own Airbnb in Rome now, we have six rooms you can rent from us

…and thought: what provides that little extra at check-in? Now we offer a small bottle of prosecco. Everyone comments on it because it's unexpected.

It's spot-on. Everyone comments when they come in: wow, did we get a little—I mean, it costs us two euros, or two-fifty, or something like that. Yes. Yes, but it's very much the thought that counts.

Exactly, find that little extra and give it. That loyalty will come back a hundred times over.

Yes, but it's so valuable, when you've bought something and then a little gift arrives, a letter saying this is because you're a loyal customer. You're really happy, and then you spread the word to everyone you know. So it's the best influencer thing you can do. Pack a little something extra for your customers and take care of them.

Yes, like half a tea bag when you buy fancy coffee at NK for probably 300 kronor. It wasn't half a tea bag; it was half of a big bag. Yes, but you said half a tea bag. I was

No, half a tea bag wouldn't have been very nice either. It was very generous. I expressed myself badly, but it was generous.

Yes. And that's what counts. Yes. And the idea is always that online, it's the same thing: toss something extra into the box when they buy something, and you'll definitely get more loyal customers. There's no question.

Absolutely right. Brilliant, Jakob. I think we've had an episode packed full of good tips. I hope everyone listening has taken something away. It was fun having you here on the podcast sofa for the first time. Hopefully not the last.

Really fun. Please come back with new personalization, UX, and conversion tips to share with the listeners. We'll see you at Pindex next week. Everyone listening can sign up; Google Pindex Stockholm.

Yes. And then you'll reach a site where you sign up, and if you work in e-commerce, especially if you're in that zero-to-a-hundred or hundred-plus range, it's free.

Free for all online retailers. Suppliers have to pay. Then there aren't so many sponsors pulling at you. A few, perhaps, [unclear in the source: om de är generell]…

a few, but not very many. Someone has to pay for the whole event. But from my own experience, it's one of the absolute best e-commerce events in Stockholm. So if you haven't been to Pindex, I promise you'll take away an incredible number of good tips, and it's a good network. There's even a nice dinner after the event that you have to be invited to. So

Help. Are we going to invite everyone to dinner? No, I'm not going to do that. But I'm thinking if a cool company signs up, you have to invite them to dinner.

Yes, okay. Then you should say you've listened to the podcast and write directly to Jakob, and we'll link your details in the show notes, so I hope a few more people can join the dinner.

It's fun to have new people, always appreciated. Otherwise, they can have my place; I'm invited. No, you have to be at the dinner.

I'll be there. Next week, September 2, from lunch through the afternoon. The User Meetup beforehand is also open, mainly for Triggerbee users, but with tips and advice there too. Please come then. Then…

The User Meetup for people who use the app is roughly ten to twelve. Lunch, and then everyone else who wants to listen. Pindex itself has an awards ceremony for small and large companies. Hopefully, Mockberg will be in contention at the top, but we'll see.

We've worked a lot with personalization this year in different countries, but we also know the competition is tough. We know Kicks is brutally good. The whole Matas group, really.

Yes. Yes. Yes, but they're really good. They're brutally good at online personalization, also considering the amount of data they have about their users, the number of SKUs, how they guide customers, and the post-purchase process, and you—I mean, it's

The community is enormous and good. You do weight the different elements, don't you? Before you leave the sofa: what are the three most important things for ranking highly on Pindex?

It's hard to pick just three. Definitely being selective in your communication to members and non-members. Recommendations and other things also have to be tailored to the individual.

Not recommending three other lip balms after someone has bought one? No, better than that. Also a creative whole, making the physical shop and online shop connect…

…so I'm the same member wherever I meet them. Have you tried it in two hundred shops? Mockberg has one; have you been there? No, we go online with everyone. But we see who does things differently, drives traffic, and uses in-store events on the site. Kicks has been good at that all along.

Interesting. Lots of parameters. Everyone starts at the maximum, and then we deduct points for what's missing.

Smart, and a different approach. The criteria change every year based on what we see. The market changes and new things emerge…

Then a loyalty club, good follow-up emails when someone is due to receive a campaign or something else. That sounds like a full-time job for someone at Triggerbee.

Yes, it has been. But now we're using AI much more, so we can also do it much faster and more easily. But of course, this is something that's made us learn an incredible amount. We didn't know everything before. And then over time, we've come to understand the depth even more. And that very thing you're asking for, you're not alone in that.

We want to be more creative, build better loyalty among existing customers, and find new members. The basis of personalization is making people feel chosen, even if perhaps they aren't.

Brilliant, Jakob. Thank you, and thanks to everyone who's listened. What's the easiest way to reach you? Go to LinkedIn, Jakob at Triggerbee, or to our website.

We'll link the contact details in the show notes below. The video podcast is now always on YouTube. If you haven't watched, go in and leave a rating if you like it. Review it on Shopify, I was going to say, Spotify, and wherever you listen. Share it with a colleague, friend, or acquaintance who will find it useful. That's how we grow, completely unsponsored, because it's fun. Next time, Fredrik Ankarsköld and I will be back with what's happened in the companies over the summer, everything we need to update you on, and what needs doing this autumn. What are…

the first things we're going to change, and UX and conversion optimization are high on the list, because we need to get better and more profitable. Exciting. Thank you, Jakob. Thank you very much. Really fun to be here.